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Um. Way to be self-sabotaging fandom! Hating people who are actively participating in fandom just because they're participating is not going to help anything. And what's up with the personal vendettas against BNFs? There's this really nifty feature called the scroll button when you don't want to read something.
Anyway, some people defend hate memes because they're like, the only opportunity for non-BNFs to be heard and anonymous commenting levels the playing field or something. Yes, it totally sucks that lj is more of a popularity contest than a cohesive community, but seriously, if you're yourself are actually involved in fandom, can you not see the good in encouraging everyone to participate? Because it seems to me that a lot of times creative people play off of each other and encouraging that should never, ever be a bad thing. One thing I do wish though, is that some of the stuff brought up in the hate threads could actually be discussed outside of the context of petty, spiteful commentary.
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eleveninches posted the other day, I think in response to something that came up in sga_hate, about authors responding to feedback. She asked if people are affected by whether or not an author responds to their feedback. While I didn't see the original threads, I imagine some of the hate was directed at several prolific authors in the sga fandom who somewhat notoriously don't respond to feedback. In response to her questions I said this about my feedback habits:I really try to leave feedback for everything I enjoyed reading, but if it's a writer who I know doesn't respond to feedback, I usually won't bother. Above and beyond any considerations of fandom etiquette and politeness, not responding to feedback (at least to me) seems to indicate a certain level of indifference towards even getting feedback at all.
And personally, I like writing feedback, I like picking out what I loved, and telling writers exactly what worked for me. So I usually spend a good amount of time trying to construct something more than a quick "thanks!" (not that there's anything wrong with doing that, sometimes it's all I have time for too.) Fandom is a reciprocal culture, if I don't feel like the time I put into feedback is appreciated, I won't leave it. And more than that, feedback is pretty much the best opportunity for readers to interact with writers, it's how a lot of meta gets discussed, and how a lot of people meet new friends. I don't think every writer has to automatically make friends with all of their reviewers, but I think it's nice when the channels of communication are at least open to that, even if all it is is a standard thank you reply, at least that's something.
Some of the best meta discussions I've had have come out of feedback threads,
synecdochic is especially good at fostering those sorts of conversations when she posts fanfic. I know I've gotten to be better friends with at least half of the writers on my friendslist through conversations that started with feedback. And I know not all authors are interested in that or have time for that, but at least a thank you is, I think, called for when people give you a compliment. It just feels, at worst, rude and at least, like they don't care that people have left them feedback.(stealing
eleveninches' questions:) What do you guys think? Does anyone think a blanketed thank you is a poor response to feedback? Do you not leave feedback if the author doesn't say thanks? Do you get annoyed seeing an author saying a standard thank you to every comment left for them? Do you not care and leave feedback regardless of the author's actions? And, because I know there are several authors on my friendslist, do you guys all respond to your feedback? Do you feel like you have to? Or that it's a waste of time when all you can really say is "thanks" 40 times?- Mood:
curious
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Comments
For one my math enabled brain says: but the exchange has been completed. I have just spent weeks and weeks writing this thing. And I wrote it because I wanted to yes, and I wrote it because it just would't let me go, yes. But I have put in my hours. And when I say hours. I mean months sometimes.
And so my feedback is a lovely little gift, it's great, yes it validates me on some level.
BUT. I can't help but do the cost/benefit analysis so to speak. Fandom has now made me feel obligated to reply to all feedback (not that I probably wouldn't in any event) and now I know that working on a story not only includes all of those before hours, but many *after* hours as well. And while a person who has just sent me feedback has invested the time it takes to read my story + the time it takes to write me feedback. Both of which can vary greatly, in most cases that investment is no where NEAR what I put in.
So I feel a little put upon to reply to all feedback in a manner in which no one will feel insulted. I too feel a copy and paste feedback is sort of... belittling the process and seriously, sometimes I just have no idea what to say. Whether it's this large, complimentary feedback (which often don't include questions to answer, which indeed does make it easer, but just this lovely letter to me about my story) or a one line "OMG! JKLJKLJK!!"
ALSO. And I remember this from another converstation. It's a matter of how exhausting a writer finds it. Some people have no problem with just plowing through a row of comments. I get a page done and I feel exhausted. It's not easy. At least for me. If you go and look at my fic LJ you'll see I've stopped in the middle because I need to step back and take a break. And then life gets busy and I forget for a little while. Some stories... I can't stand to look at when I'm done. I dont' want to think about it beyond checking in on the feedback now and then. So it can take upwards of a month to get back to it and do some serious replying.
I also chafe at the assumption a lot of people make that some authors don't reply to feedback because they think they're above it or that they're too good for it or something inane like that.
Exactly. I mean, I think we're all agreeing on the matter of etiquette and what's socially polite. But hi, *writing*. I don't demand feedback. I may plead for it, I appreciate it a whole lot even if it's just ":)" but I do not expect it. Why should anyone demand an answer to feedback from me?
I don't get why this isn't on the same level as "Finish this story now or else." Yes, that low.
Now again, I have to add the caveat that I'm very much about Story, Story, Story, even if it's to my *own* detriment to turn people off. One of the pleasures of fanfic for me is the freedom to write it and then not worry if anyone's buying it.
And with that in mind? Some stories take it out of me. The two stories in my collection of about 150 fics that receive the most feedback get no replies from me. Trefoil (http://shusu.livejournal.com/186185.html) got recced all over the place and got some two dozen spontaneous responses over three *years*. I feel horrible not being able to respond -- but I just couldn't. The next HP book had come out; the characters had gotten away from me, in canon and in my own fanon. I loved the stories, I loved the feedback, but the best I could do was make a graphic, and put it up right there: this is a special story, but I just -can't-.
If a potential commenter wants to take that as a personal slight on *them*, there's not much I can do about it. It's not like I don't have mini-novels like The River Sanzu Overflows or Digital Complex that receive little feedback outside of my flist... of course I treasure every comment for every story. A pro author would love every fan-letter and e-mail. But do we expect him or her to answer everything? (Are we going to expect David Hewlett to say something about his postcards?)
Not getting an answer doesn't stop me from leaving dozens more comments in stranger's journals for stories that are brilliant. As a reader, that's *my* burden to make the connection with the writer, then see what happens. The original wank, to me, just reeks of an excuse not to leave feedback. Period.
As a reader, I can't help but get a little irked by this viewpoint. There's never going to be any way that readers will have spent the same amount of time as a writer has contributing to fandom. And that balance of time is more than (in a lot of reader's minds at least) made up for in popularity and attention.
If I go to someone's art show, the two hours I spend there are never going to equal the amount of time they took making the art. But if I like their work, I'll talk to them, I'll try to pick out a couple favorite pieces, tell them what worked for me, maybe ask a question about how they got a certain effect, and I'll thank them for showing their work. If their only response to that, and to everyone else who congratulated them on a good show, is to walk away without saying anything, I'm going to think it's rude. I'm probably not going to feel like ever telling them I enjoyed their work again. Maybe I'll still look at pictures, and enjoy it from a distance, but I'm probably not going to feel like praising them again.
And I think that analogy carries over into fanfiction as well. Posting a story is like having an art show. Spending those three hours at a show interacting with people who like art is exactly like opening a forum for response in a livejournal post. It's the artist saying, look what I've made! Enjoy it!
I also chafe at the assumption a lot of people make that some authors don't reply to feedback because they think they're above it or that they're too good for it or something inane like that.
If the only interaction a reader has with the writers they admire is through feedback, and they never get any sort of response back. What, exactly, are they supposed to think? Because there's really no way that a reader is going to know that there are extenuating circumstances to an author ignoring the feedback they get. (None of which in any way justifies the hatred directed at authors for not responding to feedback because that's just plain stupid.) Obviously, every writer is going to feel differently, and no one has to do anything on livejournal, but with the already unequal balance of favoritism towards people who produce stories, when the only resource a reader has is to try their hardest to leave good feedback, being ignored is going to feel purposeful and not a byproduct of other things that an author might have going on. And they won't have the benefit of context because they probably don't know what else the author has going on in their life.
As I said, sometimes I can't even LOOK at anything even relating to the story after I post it.
And yeah, if there's a question or a comment that I feel I can really turn into a conversation it's always easier, but for me... responding to feedback takes a lot of... energy. And it shouldn't be interpreted as a bad thing, it's just the sort of activity that tires my brain. And I know that a blanket thank you peeves off other people too. So I feel this guilt/obligation cycle that I shouldn't feel because I do appreciate all the feedback I get.
But again... I wrote my story because it wouldn't let me NOT write it. But to put the burden on me to continue any and all correspondance just makes me irrationally frustrated, because yeah, I appreciate even than "wow" one word bits too. And then I feel guilty about feeling frustrated... etc.
y'know...i just came back and reread your comments and started to realize that for me it's never about someone falling bhind on responding to a popular story or even not responding at all...we all get overwhelmed or just can't catch up or have RL issues interfere...it's the systematic no-reply policy or (almost worse) the selective policy (i'll only respond to my friends).
i'd never get upset about not getting a response on a story or two or even three...it's no responses on involved emails and consistent refusal to acknowledge comment feedback that drives my policy, at least... [and i know othersfeel different, though i don't seem to be alone in my feelings...]
Yeah, that's pretty much exactly where the line starts to get drawn for me. As I said in comments to
I'm repeating myself from another comment in this thread, but isn't it just as easy NOT to pass judgment about this? Why bother making assumptions when you don't have all the facts? There are so many personality types out there, and so many reasons why people *don't* reply to feedback (I remember a debate a year or so back where someone brought up that they didn't like to clutter up their responses with their own posts, that what they really enjoyed was having their story there and then the comments and no messy threads), that I think it's a bit worst-case scenario to think you're being ignored or *singled out* to be ignored.
To be fair, this debate has opened me a little more than previous ones to the other side. As a reader, I personally will never want the author to feel in debt to me for my feedback, that's just not in my nature, but I think after reading how many people feel shunned when they don't get that response? Maybe we can expect authors to at least *attempt* to reply to feedback regularly, and maybe we can expect readers who aren't as ready to think the worst of an author if they don't get there half of the time, because at least they're trying.
Also, if I were the type, I'd be more easily annoyed at people who picked their friends to respond to than those who didn't comment at all, because at least the latter is consistent, and it's more likely they have a reason why they don't. Then again, to play my own devil's advocate, the former might be more comfortable speaking with people they know, because who isn't?
Agh, I feel like I'm making no sense. I'm terribly wiped from packing and moving. I hope this comment came out as something other than a jumble.
I can completely relate to an author who doesn't have time to respond to every piece of feedback they get, but not acknowledging it at all? Ever? I refuse to believe that there is a single author out there on livejournal who doesn't have time to say the words thank you at least once, be it a blanket thanks in another post or an eta on the original one or a note in their userinfo and while they certainly don't have to, I think we can all agree that the polite response to receiving a compliment (or a gift) is to say thank you.
See this is where I think people begin to disagree. Not that saying thank you for a gift isn't polite, you're right that most would agree with you there. I think it's what people view feedback *as* which sparks the debate. My feedback to other people is a thank you. It just honestly is. I'm not looking to get anything back for it, unless I *am* (when I ask a question). I don't give to get, you know? There's something impolite in *that*, I think.
I've been questioning last night and today why as a writer I try to respond to all my feedback, even though as a reader, I don't feel it's necessary. I went through a few different explanations (obligation, give people what they want, don't hurt people's feelings, etc) but I think it's less because I think it's polite or that I'm obligated to, and more because I just *want* to. I like to. I'm attention hungry (well, when I'm not avoiding it) and so are other people and I *know* that. Though there is some of that doing what's expected of me in there, too, must be or else I wouldn't feel anxious when I go through the phase where I'm horrible at responding.
Just a note, I'm glad this debate hasn't turned into wank. So far people seem to be respecting the opinions of others, and I feel completely comfortable speaking my honest opinion even though it's clearly an unpopular one. Hopefully we can all keep it this way? ::crosses fingers::
::headdesk::
The second accomplishment is actually starting a real discussion, what theantimodel praised synecdochic for. I've had great discussions about her stories in comment threads and if a story hits me the right way, and I want to talk about it, I may write a longer response and I'd love to get some response, because it's about conversation and discussion.
For that matter, I feel the same way with all LJ communication (which is the closest I come to "feedback" given that I don't write). I pretty much respond to all comments I receive on posts and don't ask myself how many hours or even days and weeks may have gone into a post. because to me every comment is an invite to a conversation, and not responding is like getting up and leaving when someone comes up and wants to talk to me. In fact, if I can't or won't respond, i may prevent comments, thus showing that I'm not able or willing to engage. But when I post, *that*'s what I'm inviting people to do, start a conversation and continue discussion...
[Then again, Im' a little weird about one-sidedness on LJ, and pretty much only friend mutually, b/c it's *all* about conversation for me!]
as for the OP: yes, I'm more lackadaisical when feedbacking a writer who habitually doesn't respond to feedback, i.e., I may only feedback every few stories or when the story really hits me hard, or when i have extra time...and with some writers I just don't.
It's not a gift. It's a compliment. I would seriously bet you were not raised to think it's acceptable to respond to someone who offers you a (sincere and appropriate) compliment with a blank stare and a turn away, which is what ignoring feedback amounts to.
And even if it is a gift, I'll bet you weren't raised to think it acceptable to fail to thank the giver of a gift, either. Heck, I'd say it's *less* defensible to ignore feedback-as-gift than feedback-as-compliment, because sometimes you can at least make a reasonable argument that a particular piece of feedback isn't a compliment.
Yes, it's extra work for you. Pretty much everything that goes into civility *is* extra work. If it were easy and natural, we wouldn't need a separate concept of manners.
I agree that it's civil. I do. I just have certain irrational feelings about how feedback and lack thereof is percieved.
This here is why people shouldn't make assumptions *ever* without evidence to back them up. Yes, okay, when someone consistently doesn't comment on your feedback you can jump to the conclusion that they're a snob, but you can also jump to the conclusion that they're trapped in a well somewhere. Either of these assumptions could be true/wrong. That's why they're assumptions and not facts.
I've seen a few comments in this debate about acknowledgment being what's wanted, and that when it's not given, there is no way for the person giving the feedback to know whether the author is being a snob or not. And, you know, that's true. It's also true that it's just as easy NOT to make the judgment, especially when you don't have all the facts.
I think maybe my opinion is shifting the slightest. An author should maybe make an *attempt* at responding to their feedback on a regular basis. As a reader I wouldn't ask for anything more. As a reader? I probably wouldn't even ask for that, but it's something of a middle ground for readers who want that extra mile, and as a writer, it might make me feel a little less guilty when I forget a comment or two.
For some reason this discussion pressed my buttons really hard yesterday; I went home and wrote this long, long rant that I thought I might post today. It was full of self-righteous posturing about Guilt, and how fandom was meant to be Fun. Ha. I'm such a pretentious twat sometimes.
Anyway, after sleeping on it, today I find I'm feeling much more relaxed, all live-and-let-live. That's one definate advantage to not having internet at home. I don't very often press the post button in the heat of the moment.
For the most part, I agree with your viewpoint that feedback on fic is a way to say thank you, no strings attached. It's what I think when I give it, and it's what most of the feedback I get seems to be too (or at least that's what I assume when I'm not racked with Fannish Guilt ;).
I've never understood what's so taxing about "Thank you very much. I'm glad you liked it." So you say it or a small variation of it fifty times - big deal. I don't think a reader expects you to come up with fifty wild variations on a thank-you.
More detailed comments, IMO, automatically merit more detailed replies.
And it just takes energy. It's from a different place. I can't explain it. It's probably why I'm not always good at replying to comments to regular old journal entries. I just-- I get to a point where I don't know what to say anymore, if the comment should get a "thank you" in some permutation or if it gets something a bit more. They're not all black and white and easy to make the decision.
Also, my hands and wrists cramp. They cramp in ways that they don't when writing fic. Or maybe they do but I'm far more enthralled in the fic writing because there's no inerupting to press send every few minutes. And god help me if I'm trying to answer feedback a few hours before a weather change. *ow*.